Hi, everyone and welcome back to Happy Hour. 欢迎回来酒馆. Hi, 安澜.

Hi, Lulu, hi, everyone.

On the second morning, apparently, according to the researchers account, they were bailed. They removed their caps numbers, push beds against cell doors. Basically say we're not doing this.

How did the guards respond?

They used a fire extinguisher to force them away from the doors.

An actual fire extinguisher? were they actually allowed to do it?

Oh, yeah.

They entered the cells took away beds and clothing and then they isolated some of the prisoners.

Yeah, OK. That sounds violent.

And physical violence was actually supposed to be forbidden.

Mhm.

But as we know, there are plenty of ways to make someone suffer without actually hitting them or punching them.

I guess taking away their beds and forcing them to sleep on the floor and taking some people away, maybe even just put them in a… I don't know in an isolated cell, that's mental torture.

Oh, yeah. And after the quote unquote rebellion, the guards gave some prisoners special treatment. So maybe beds, clothing, opportunities to wash. Others didn't get the same treatment.

Oh, so they were dividing and conquering.

Yeah. And the guards switched people between groups. And this meant that the prisoners became much more suspicious of one another.

Oh... I can imagine, wondering why someone else like, for example, if we were in the same cell, you got a bed and I had to sleep on the floor, I'd be like, what did you do?

Well, yeah.

Were you a rat?

Oh, yeah, exactly. So they began looking for informers and this is exactly what the guards wanted and the guards were the ones who were in ultimate control.

Emm. And what happened then.

Well. There were repeated counts, including at night where prisoners had to say their numbers. They were forced to do push ups as punishment.

I mean this does sound I know they were not hit.

Yeah.

But keeping people up at night, this is sleep deprivation, this is actually used in interrogation.

Oh, yeah. And in that setting the demands just kept coming really.

And you could really even have an uninterrupted night's sleep.

You know I start to wonder why would the guards do that, were the guards okay with doing all of that?

Yeah, well. This is when we start thinking about the Lucifer Effect.

So one thing that was happening was dehumanization.

So stripping you of your humanity.

Yeah. So if you are dehumanizing someone, you're treating them as if the feelings or needs don't really matter.

You’re seeing a difficult prisoner instead of a frightened young man who just willingly participating in a psychological experiment.

Yeah, exactly in the basement of the university.

And this is actually quite easy to do and it's quite shockingly easy because a label a number make it easier to ignore the individual.

We see that all the time in society actually, to keep ourselves away from trouble, I'm not going to use any specific labels, but if I put a label on you, instead of saying 安澜 you‘re your own person, then if I just hate people with that label, it makes it easier to hate you.

Oh, yeah.

And just imagine what it was like from the other side.

Em.

So this was a process in which you were becoming less personally accountable. You were hidden inside a group or inside a uniform or behind sunglasses. You weren't visible as an individual even when you were a God.

It's the famous saying it's not really me doing it. It's what the guards do.

Yeah.

Isn't that the same thing that a lot of Nazi soldiers...

I was only following orders.

I was only following orders to get themselves out of this whole heinous acts that they committed, the war crimes they committed.

Yeah. So that's one way of explaining it. Another is conformity.

Oh. Following others like the herd or mob mentality.

You're just in your behavior to fit the group. So you don't necessarily agree. It's just that you don't want the others to turn on you.

Yeah. I mean... and also you do have the peer pressure if you just keep your mouth shut.

Yeah.

Not actively going against the orders, the person giving orders may interpret your silence as support.

Oh, yeah. And this type of thing usually happens gradually. This is people don't really wake up one morning and suddenly if they feel our account gonna be horrible today.

For example, imagine a group making fun of a new member or children at a schoolyard bullying each other. At first it might be an embarrassing nickname, then it becomes a daily joke and then they might make the person do things that are humiliating. And by that point, maybe someone might object and more often than not they just get told this is what we've always done. He doesn't mind or she doesn't mind.

Actually, I've seen that happen.

Yeah.

Yeah. Each step makes the next one seem less unusual. So it never happened overnight going from complete innocence to heinous act against humanity. It changes gradually.

Oh, yeah.

And people can also change the language bullying becomes building team spirit, we’re part of a team; humiliation becomes teaching someone respect.

Oh, yeah.

Isn't that what happened in some fraternity or sorority clubs in the US, the hazing?

Oh, yeah. Because when you start giving it a respectable name or that behavior a respectable name, it becomes a lot easier to defend.

So this is also another idea, moral disengagement(道德脱钩：社会心理学中的一个概念，指的是在特定情境下，个体说服自己道德标准不适用于自己的过程).

Oh, to separate yourself from morality.

Not quite, it's more you find reasons why the usual standards somehow don't apply this time.

Oh, you would say I'm following orders.

Yeah. Or it's only a joke; or they deserve it.

Ahh…. so I guess those explanations and can help someone continue all this cruel behaviors while still thinking of themselves as a good person.

Oh, yeah.

Like I was a Nazi officer, but I was still a nice person because I was only following orders, because they deserved it and things like that.

Yeah.

I remember that they actually called off the experiment midway right? prematurely.

Oh, yeah. Basically a colleague of Zimbardo actually visited and according to what she saw, she saw prisoners being moved in the line with bags over their heads and their legs chained. She objected so strongly that it brought the study to an end after 6 days.

Yeah, this has become one of the most notorious psychological experiments that triggered so much ethical debates.

Oh, yeah. Not least of all Zimbardo because he actually took on the role as a prison superintendent.

So he was actually becoming part of the experiment itself. He wasn't a neutral bystander, he was actually...

That does not sound right.

No. And a lot of people objected to that.

But ethical concerns about the whole experiment aside, what did the experiment prove?

Well. There's a lot of debate about the experiment, but it is one of those things where you see the gradual change in a person's behavior and I do agree that people can justify anything if they feel like they are just following orders or somehow the usual rules don't apply in this situation.

MHM. I guess the guards they weren't just given uniforms.

And This weren't just like a natural behavior. They were given orders. Right?

Oh. That's the thing, even the orders they were given about kind of no physical violence and things like that. It was getting dangerously close to that. It's developed into that situation. They weren't exactly ordered.

OK. You have to use a fire extinguisher on these people. They had control, they wanted to exercise that control and their thought that their job was to exercise that control.

MHM. Maybe they were told to be a tough guard and that's exactly what they did.

Yeah, well exactly. A good example of that would be online pile-on（网络群起攻之、网暴式集体围攻）. One person posts an insult, gets approval and it goes further, and more and more and more people post insults and things are rude. Each participant may think their own contribution is tiny, but it's still part of a damaging whole.

Yeah. I guess so. Because you see a lot of people... you would think when a tragedy happens as the result of an online pile-on, by the way, guys, pile-on means a lot of people launched attack against one person online.

Yeah.

就是那种集体网暴, you would think when this person, for example, when the victim committed suicide or ended up traumatized severely then all of these culprits, all of these people who attacked the victim would at least feel some sort of remorse or guilt, but no, most of them feel like it's not my problem.

Oh, yeah.

I wasn't the one who said it.

I only wrote one comment.

Yeah. I wasn't the one who caused this. By the way, isn't that the whole idea of banality of evil as well?

Oh, yeah. The idea of banality of evil, but evil itself is very banal. It's just very ordinary.

Yeah. It doesn't... we don't really need a baddie, a villain to commit heinous crimes. We just need normal people following orders and obeying the rules, probably just agreed upon by the whole group.

But then again, it's important to note that being anonymous or being in control doesn't automatically make someone cruel, because people in control or people being anonymous can also help people.

So it's not a case of the situation controls us because we still have our own moral values. We still have the values of the group. But we can say the situation influences us.

Exactly. I guess if you believe that situation controls us completely, then basically you're saying that we do not have our own agency and autonomy.

Yeah.

So really the Lucifer effect asks how ordinary people come to accept behavior they might once have found shocking and disgusting.

Exactly. So all in all, he asks us to look beyond personality.

He looks at power, pressure, rewards, and also the people themselves who are set in the rules.

Em. So I guess on that note, we're wrapping up this very first episode of our new segment called the Mind under Rocks, 【心理加点冰】. Let us know what you think about this segment. We really would appreciate your comments. I know you guys don't like leaving comments, but please do.

Yeah.

And that basically would be our encouragement to go forward. And yeah you can also put in your request of any topics that are related to pop psychology.

So until then.

We'll see you next time.

Bye.

Bye.

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